*Photo: Alhaji Jamiu Abiola*
Presenter:
It’s always a pleasure to be with you on Insight at Citizen 93.7 FM here in Abuja. My name is Lawrence Umoete. Welcome to the show. It’s exactly 32 years since June 12, 1993 presidential election won by the late Bashorun MKO Abiola. But that election was annulled by former military president, General Ibrahim Babangida, rtd. Today on Insight, we take a reflective journey back to one of the most defining moments in Nigeria’s democratic history, June 12, 1993. It was the day Nigerians came out in large numbers to vote in what is widely regarded as the freest and the fairest presidential election in our country’s history. As we remember June 12, we ask, what lessons have we truly learnt? How far have we come in deepening democracy? And how far do we still have to go? Join me shortly to share insights on this historic day and its lasting legacy. Stay with us, this promises to be a powerful and reflective conversation. You can join our live stream on Citizen FM 93.7, on YouTube you can type in Insight, and then you will be part of this show from anywhere you are on the surface of planet Earth. You can also listen to us online on www.citizenfm.ng. And not forgetting our social media platforms on Facebook at Citizen FM Abuja. On Instagram at Citizen FM 937, and also on X at Citizen FM 937. Welcome to the show once again, my name is Lawrence Umoete. Well, our guest on the show today is Alhaji Jamiu Abiola, son of the late Chief MKO Abiola, the winner of the 1993 presidential election, and also the proud son of Alhaja Kudirat Abiola, that heroine of the June 12 struggle. Welcome to the show, Alhaji Jamiu. Welcome to the show.
Guest Speaker:
Thank you very much, I’m glad to be here.
Presenter
All right. Alhaji Jamiu Abiola is currently the senior special assistant to the president on linguistic and foreign matters. He was before now special assistant to the president on Special Duties in the office of the vice president. And also not forgetting that Alhaji Jamiu Abiola is the Shettima Rasheed of Borno. Once again, it’s a pleasure to have you on the Insight, Alhaji.
Guest Speaker:
Thank you so much.
Presenter:
All right. Eh! maybe we just start, uh, this with, Alhaji Jamiu. First, on a personal note, how has it been for the Abiola family in the last 32 years?
Guest Speaker:
Well, it had been, like a rollercoaster ride. You know, what happened to us was like a hurricane. And, we thank God that we are able to survive it because it is not easy to carry a whole country on your shoulders. I mean, you win an election that you now become from the victor or from the winning party to the one that is being prosecuted, prosecuted by a very powerful military government, and a very, very wicked ruling elite, as in the military ruling elite. It was, you know, very, very brutal, especially the five, the years of Abacha’s government, which year was from November 1993 to 1998, June 8, when he passed away. Then, we now had General Abdulsalami who came on board and felt that this is going to be a beginning of emancipation, freedom, in terms of, like, our breadwinner, Chief MKO Abiola coming out of jail. By then, my mother had been killed a year and a half before Abacha died. But, you know, Abdulsalami, you know, he, he released everyone, all the notable political prisoners, but left my father, you know, where he was, in detention. And he actually even made it impossible for any family member to see my dad till a day before he died, you know. I mean, Abacha died in June 8, and the family members were only allowed to see my dad July 7. So almost 29 days, you know. Just as he was about to be killed or… That was when we were allowed to see him. But before that, they allowed Kofi Annan, who was the Secretary-General of the United Nations, and Emeka Anyaokuwu, who was the Common Wealth secretary-general. They allowed people like that to see him, as if those people were more important to my dad than his own family, you know. So it was from there, you know, the struggle continued, even after he died. To date, there has been a very, very terrible three decades. But we thank God we’re… as a family, we survived and we are still surviving.
Presenter:
You said the family was not allowed to see Chief MKO Abiola until a day before he died. So that means the family members saw him 24 hours before his death. Were you part of that delegation or, do you know what happened? What happened? What did they say? How was the last 24 hours with the family before he died?
Guest Speaker:
Immediately after Abacha died and the new head of state emerged, the family had been reaching to General Abdulsalami Abubakar that they wanted to see Chief MKO Abiola again. And they… when I say the family here, I’m talking about, like, the matriarch of the family, which is Mrs. Adebisi Abiola, and the other, wife was in the house with Chief,Tundun Abiola. They tried and tried and tried and tried. And they finally got approval on the 6th of July that they should come and see him. By that time, I was still in the United States. I hadn’t come back to Nigeria yet. You know, I came back to Nigeria much later. So the family members that saw him were Chief Mrs. Adebisi Abiola, Chief Tundun Abiola, and Ms. Lola Abiola, who is my father’s eldest child. They saw him from, like, 8:00 in the night of July 6 till, like, around 10:00, 11:00 on July 6. It was the following morning that he was now… well, he now died from a supposed heart attack. You know, so what we’re talking about is, like, for 29 days, he wasn’t allowed to see his family. So what we now… What I now concluded was that they were only allowed to see him so that it’s on record that they saw him before he died. Because if they, they didn’t see him, and he died, then they would have said the family did not see him and he died, it would have made the government look very, very bad. So I assumed that the approval was only given for them to see him because it was known that he was going to die. When they saw him, he was in very, very bad condition health-wise. He said he had fever, he said he wasn’t feeling well. He even said, you know, he’s been dreaming about my late mother, Kudirat, and his… and my late stepmother, Alhaja Simbiat, that he saw them. So he was more or less hinting that he believed he was going to die. Then the issue of his health was not really good at all, and he complained bitterly about that. So then he wasn’t healthy, then he should have been released for medical checkup, but they just kept him, and he finally died.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
So it was a very, very, you know, tragic event. You know, it was terrible.
Presenter
Okay. I also know that you were, like, about 18 years when the June 12 election was annulled, and about 23 or thereabout when he died. What was your personal relationship like with your dad, even though you were mostly in the United States?
Guest Speaker
Well, I was very close to him because I used to come home for every holiday, and I was his only child that could speak more than, um, two languages. So whenever he had guests that come from Northern Nigeria or, or from the Arab world, or anything, or from Francophone Africa, he will call me.
Presenter
Okay, you speak Arabic and French.
Guest Speaker
I speak Arabic, I speak French, I speak Hausa, I speak German, I speak Italian, I speak all of them. You know. So he would call me, I should come and translate for him, and I’ll always be in between and all of that. So through those, I was able to get very close to him. You know, it’s difficult to be close to a father that has so many wives. You know, we, we grew up in the same house, and he had four wives in that house, but he also had a lot of women in his life outside the house as well.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
So he was more or less everywhere, in terms of, like, he had people, like relations and, like, you know, children here, children there. And he also, you know, was also a philanthropist, and he was also somebody that was a politician. So… Well, at that point, he was a politician, but he was a philanthropist, too. He was more or less like his life was 70% dedicated to outside the family, you know. So he was… So but then through this helping him with language interpretation, I was able to get very close to him, and we now had a special bond through that. And we were able to talk more and more. And because I could speak Arabic, he just felt like I was an angel, you know. He felt somebody that can speak Arabic, knows the Quran, cannot do anything wrong. So if I told him anything, he would say, “Yes, it’s true, because he speaks Arabic”, you know. But obviously (laughs) you can… (laughs)
Presenter
So, so were there times you used that to your advantage?
Guest Speaker
Well, I don’t think so.
Presenter
Just to get something from Daddy?
Guest Speaker
(laughs) I can use that, yes, but, I mean, I will not, you know, go further than that.
Presenter
Okay. I’m sure that there has been a lot written about your dad’s public life, his, philanthropism, and stuff like that. But we want to know the Abiola as a father, the Abiola as a family man. From your perspective, how was he?
Guest Speaker
He was a very generous man, but I just told you now, he was more divided in terms of, like, his time was more dedicated outside. As a matter of fact, you know, to make a long story short, you know, I wrote, in 2015, which is, like, 10 years ago, I wrote a book called The President That Never Ruled.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
That book is on Amazon. I wrote the book in Arabic and I wrote it in English. And I also wrote another book in 2016 called The Stolen Presidency.
So I’ve written two books about him, and those books are in-depth. The books, those are just, not just talking about him as a father, but talking about him as a child, when he was a child, as a son to his own father.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
Talking about him as a student, talking about him as a businessman, talking about him as a politician, and talking about him as, in his final role as a democratic crusader. So the book, The Stolen Presidency covers everything about the life of Chief MKO Abiola, and it’s a book I wrote like a novel. I wrote it like a novel to make it more interesting so that people that read the book can see the intrigues, uh, not just like a history book where they’ll say, “2004, this happened. 2007, this happened.”
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
I wanted to make it fun, so I made it into a novel with characters, and it’s a real novel anyway.
Presenter
Yeah.
Guest Speaker
But to answer your question, he was a very generous man, you know, he gave us big allowance, he gave us the best education, all of that. But in terms of the distance, he, there’s always away… You know, there was always a distance, and it wasn’t his fault.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
You know, sometimes he would tell us that, “I’m gonna change, I’m gonna be more accessible. Every Sunday, we’re gonna only spend the time, we’re gonna spend it with only the kids.”
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
The following Sunday, he has gone again and he has forgotten about it. Then he would now come again and say, “Oh, sorry, oh, you know, but this time around, I’m going to try… Give me a couple of weeks,” and from there, he will forget about it.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
Well, that’s that.
Presenter
That’s the point, yeah, you people got used to it.
Guest Speaker
Yeah, we got used to it. Exactly.
Presenter
Yeah. Okay. Certainly MKO Abiola was such a formidable and political figure among Nigerians. What do you think made this possible, especially cutting across ethnic and religious divides?
Guest Speaker
Well, what actually helped him was that he was sincere. You know, at the end of the day, if you give somebody one naira and, you give it to him because you want him to do something for you that is not sincerity.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
… definitely, that person will take your one naira, and he might still do what you want, but he might do it with hatred. It’s like a woman, you know. If you tell the woman that, “I want to give you this money or I want you to do this for me,” she might actually even hate you. Even if she does what you want-
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
… she might hate you afterward. But if you give a woman all the things she wants and you don’t even want her to do anything for you, and you do it because you just want to help her, she might actually love you, to the point that even if you don’t even give her anything, she might still be doing whatever you want for her whenever you want her to do it.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
… my father was generous to Nigerians, genuinely. He was giving Nigerians… Some people say, “Oh, maybe he did it because he wanted to gain something from them politically.” That wasn’t correct. Because a lot of people that actually benefited from him financially were not people that can actually ever help him. Number one, some of them, he doesn’t even remember he helped them, so how can you even benefit from somebody you don’t even remember exist?
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
Some of these people, he gives them $2,000, $5,000, £10,000, £20,000 for surgery, this and that, and they’ve gone. They’ve taken the money and they’ve gone. He’s never going to see them again. So, it’s not a question of, like, “I gave this person this money, and I’m going to run for president, and I’m going to go to Kaduna where the person is from, and the person is going to tell people and they’re going to vote for me.”
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
He doesn’t even remember who these people were. So, that’s why Nigerians were able to love him. That’s why he became so powerful, because he did everything… He did the right things for the right reasons.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
That’s the best way to put it.
Presenter
All right. If you’re just joining us, it’s Insight on Citizen 93.7 FM Abuja. We are looking at the June 12 struggles, the June 12 years, the June 12 phenomena, everything about June 12. It’s been 32 years since that fateful, memorable day, uh, in Nigeria. And, uh, my guest is Alhaji Jamiu Abiola, who is the son of the late Chief MKO Abiola, uh, the winner of that election, and also the son of Alhaja Kudirat Abiola. Briefly, let’s talk about your mother, Alhaja Kudirat Abiola. This was one woman who stood in the gap when your father was in detention, such a strong woman. Could you let us into what made her so formidable?
Guest Speaker
Well, one, she wasn’t really somebody that would have done what she did, but it happened by accident when she saw the injustice unfolding. So what she did was a natural reaction, and she’s the kind of person that works on impulse. Once she moves in a direction, she cannot hold herself back.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
Because as far as she’s concerned, what did this man do wrong? You know, when he declared himself as president, he went into hiding for two weeks. And by the time he came out of hiding, he now, you know, came back home, and then the Abacha regime sent almost 800 policemen to arrest him. So she was right there, and she saw them taking him away, and she knows, just like other Nigerians, that this man is actually the president of Nigeria-
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
… and he’s not supposed to be a prisoner of Nigeria. So she stood with him and she entered the car with him. And when she entered the car with him and they were going together, they now stopped the car on the road and they now forced her out, and she now entered, uh, her own car, which had been trailing them-
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
… and she was following him, but they now blocked her car from following him. So she had wanted to follow him to where he was going, but they did not allow her. So at that point, something happened in her, and that thing made her say to herself that, “No, I’m not going to let this happen. Even if it’s going to happen, it’s going to not happen without me fighting against it.” That’s when her own struggle for him began.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
And that’s when he became incommunicado, and she now had to carry the whole struggle on her shoulders. And that’s when she got involved in mobilizing the…… Pen- Penguson, working with people like Frank Kokori, working with all kinds of activists to make sure that she paralyzed the Abacha government. And that was when the government realized that they- they now took a decision that they wanted to kill her because they felt as long as she’s alive, the government would not be able to get away with what they were trying to do. So, it was something that she felt she had to do because she was a witness to the injustice right there firsthand, and she couldn’t just sit down and act as if she didn’t see what she saw. So, she acted based on what she saw and she was going to go all the way and going all the way meant being killed.
Presenter
All right, ironical when we look at the sequence of events, here was your father a leading figure in detention, and here was the wife mobilizing all that. Was there any point in time as family members, that you were afraid for her life, that she could be killed anytime ?
Guest Speaker
Yes. We used to always argue with her, you know, especially me because the time that was the biggest shock was when, Chief Alfred Rewane was killed. Then we now saw Ken Saro Wiwa was killed and then Alfred Rewane.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
But, you know, they killed Ken Saro Wiwa in broad daylight and, of course, a lot of Commonwealth countries withdrew their ambassadors from Nigeria and the government didn’t care. So we now realize that a government that could act like that could do something worse. So, I used to always talk to her and telling her that if she wants to keep doing what she’s doing, she’s better off doing it out of the country. But she didn’t listen to me. And I was reading the New- New York Times one day when I saw her picture and I was wondering what she’s doing in New York Times and I read that she was arrested because, you know, some people… She had actually told them to put posters around Lagos, you know, asking the people to fight against the government, the military government. And when the people that were putting the posters were arrested, they said it was her that sent them and they arrested her overnight. So, I knew that it was getting out of hand, that she could be arrested because they said if she’s found guilty, she will be jailed for seven years.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
So things were getting heated up, so I kept warning her, warning her. And at one point she got upset with me that I was disturbing her too much. She said, “Look, the worst thing that can happen with her is for her to receive a bullet.” That’s what she told me. So, she knew that this thing is- is getting to the point because, you know, the Abacha government were not gonna step down and she wasn’t gonna step down and, you know, these people were heartless and they went all the way. I kind of like knew something like that would happen and, you know, so it wasn’t a surprise to me.
Presenter
Okay. Even though from your testimony now, you knew that something like that would happen. When it did eventually happen, how did you take it?
Guest Speaker
It was very painful because, you know, I mean, the worst had happened and I got a phone call and the person just told me directly and that was it, you know.
Presenter
Who- who called you?
Guest Speaker
It was like a… My father had an American personal assistant. It was his wife was his wife that called. By the way, the man died a couple of weeks ago and he’s been buried today.
Presenter
Mm.
Guest Speaker
He’s been buried today on June 12. He wanted to be buried on June 12 if he ever died.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
So his wife is going to bury him today but it was his wife that told me about it and she told me that, “Look, mother has been killed.” And I was like, “Wow,” you know, “This is terrible,” you know. So I came back to Nigeria to try to like, for our 48 day prayer, and I tried to see my dad as well. I went to Abuja and I was in Abuja for a month and a half and, you know, the Abacha government will not allow me to see him, so I had to go back to- to the United States. So it was a, was a tragedy upon a tragedy upon a tragedy. But, you know, this is the price you pay if you want a country that’s big and that’s complicated as Nigeria to become democratic, you know. So, you know, well, they’re heroes now and, you know, I hope that the country is able to finally get its act together and, you know, really benefit from democracy once and for all.
Presenter
Uh, well, we know the, uh, the efforts by the pro-democracy activists during this time and how they rallied round but your dad is, uh, reported to have been very close to the military elite, IBB for example. During this period were you able to reach out to some of the powerful people in government? I know that IBB was no longer in government after Abacha.
Guest Speaker
No, we can’t reach out to them because at the end of the day, you know, when we came back to Nigeria, you know, especially when my mother was killed, you know, I mean, we saw them as they are the cause of the problem, you know. So we… The only person we went to talk to was Diya and, uh, he was like number two supposedly, but he told us that he could not get involved because the Abacha government was really looking at him like he’s a sellout and he said by the time he tells General Abacha that he wants also to see my dad, he will say, “Oh yeah, we always think you’re a sellout.”
Presenter
Hmm.
Guest Speaker
So he said that we should just go and meet the commissioner of police on our own. So at that point everybody was staying away because at that point we were seen as the enemy of the government and once you’re the enemy of the government nobody wants to come close to you.
Presenter
Mm.
Guest Speaker
Especially Abacha’s government, like people were scared of you. So it was a tragedy but nonetheless, you know, it has passed and we were able to survive it. So what we’re just hoping is that, you know, Nigerians are patient and like this government is able to like implement its ideas fully and like, you know, the relief comes for Nigeria so that we start… You know, Nigerians really, really enjoy this democratic process.
Presenter
All right, uh, the phone lines are open now. My guest is Alhaji Jamiu Abiola, son of the late Chief MKO Abiola, uh, the winner of the 1993 presidential election. He’s also the son of Alhaja Kudirat Abiola. Uh, you can call us on 0903-222-9797. That’s 0903-222-9797. You can also call us on 0818-222-2205. Any of the two numbers. Uh, let’s start. Okay, already we have a caller here. Let’s hear it.
First Caller
Hello.
Presenter
Good morning.
First Caller
Hello, good morning.
Presenter
Yes. Who’s on the line, please?
First Caller
Yeah, my name is Oscar Olajide.
Presenter
Okay, we have, uh, please get-
First Caller
Calling from, uh, uh, Wuse, Abuja.
Presenter
Okay, please go ahead.
First Caller
Um, I, I want to condole with the family of Abiola, even though he’s, uh, passed.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4
And I want to appreciate the fact that there’s someone who spoke to, to us today-
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
First Caller
… of a positive one. Um, there are questions I wish I could ask-
Presenter
Hello? Hello?
First Caller
… but I don’t have the money.
Presenter
Uh, I’m afraid you’re breaking. We can barely hear you.
First Caller
I (audio breaks up).
Presenter
Oops! Okay. Perhaps, you know what? Maybe you can call us back. We can barely hear you.
First Caller
Okay. Thank you.
Presenter
Oops! I’m sorry. I have to end that call. Perhaps, we can’t, uh, seem to make out what you’re saying. The numbers again, 0903-222-9797. That’s 0903-222-9797. You can also call us on 0818-222-2205. Uh, any of those two numbers, uh, let’s talk. My guest is Alhaji Jamiu Abiola, son of late Chief MKO Abiola, winner of the 1993 presidential election, and we are talking about the June 12 years, the struggle and everything. Also, you can join our live stream on YouTube, Citizen FM, 93.7 and you will be, uh, able to follow proceedings right here in the studio. Our social media platforms are also there. You can reach out to us on Facebook @citizenfmabuja, on Instagram @citizenfm937, and also on X @citizenfm937. All right, it’s still INSIGHTS on Citizen FM 93.7. Uh, let’s talk about your dad as a businessman. MKO Abiola, the businessman. Your father built one of the largest indigenous business empires in Africa. Um, I know you were pretty young that time, but what’s, what do you think was his philosophy when it came to business and entrepreneurship?
Guest Speaker
Well, his philosophy was hard work and good marketing skill. My father was more or less a good marketer. He believed that marketing was the key. And the kind of business he did, you know, he was the…represented ITT in Nigeria.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
So, the company was a big company, and the company had its, uh, equi- equipment, which was the best at that time. So, all he had to do was to reach out to the customers, which is Nigerian government. So, he was more or less a salesman. You know, it’s not like he was an industrialist or anything like that.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
And once he was able to do that, he now was investing in other areas so that he could diversify his income. You know, he… So, to call a long story short, he believed in being a good salesman, he also believed in diversification. Meaning that he doesn’t put his eggs in one basket. So, he got involved in farms, he got involved in airlines, he got involved in oil. He did it as much as possible to make sure that if one industry was falling behind, another one would move ahead. So, he didn’t want to, you know, put everything into one, you know, area. He wanted to make sure that he’s protected. So, he was a good businessman, you know, but he was also generous to the point that the kind of person he was, he could end up even giving out his whole profit. ‘Cause, you know, as he… the older he became, the whole issue of business became secondary. The primary aim in his life was philanthropy. So, he wanted to give and give and give. So, he was actually making money to give it away.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
Just like Bill Gates now, you know. I think he has said he’s given out most of his wealth-
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
… after he died.
Presenter
90%
Guest Speaker
90%.
Guest Speaker
My father did not wait to… after he died. My father was giving out while he was alive, you know, and he kept doing it. And that, probably, is why he won the election so well, because Nigerians really needed somebody like that at that time.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
So, that’s his idea of business, you know, salesman and diversification.
Presenter
Okay. Flipping back now, uh, what are, what is the fate of a lot of those businesses now after his, uh, demise?
Guest Speaker
You know, once he got involved in the politics and he was able to like, you know… he spent a fortune, like almost $250 million on the election itself.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
And after election was annulled, he also spent another fortune trying to de-annul the election.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
Also, those two, you know, um, um, stages in his life had a very, very dramatic negative impact on his businesses. Then to make matters worse, after he died, some of his, uh, family members now went to put themselves into two companies in which he had made sure that nobody was a director or nobody was a shareholder, because he wanted his will to be established, which is that all the kids should be… have equal shares in his company. And so, people who had put themselves in the company, and then now, you know, as the company has now… is subject to, um, years and years of litigation. So, those companies are actually being affected, because they’ve been… there’s a lot of litigation in those companies. And while that is happening, the companies are not able to grow and, you know, get out of the cycle of, um, the, um, the bad state they were at as a result of the military, the hostile military environment during the incarceration of my dad. So, everything is now hanging in the court. You know, very soon, though, we’re gonna get judgments and they… we will now be able to move the companies forward. But, you know, things are not, like, looking too good, because of all the series of things that happened in the last couple of years.
Presenter
Okay, uh, unfortunately, this is also painting a picture of, uh, how, should I say, disunited the family is currently. Is this a bother to you? Because I’ve read several interviews of you and some of your uh, siblings, so concerning happenings in the immediate family.
Guest Speaker
Yes, you know, it’s a bother to us, but then again, you know, it’s something to be expected because, you know, whenever these kind of tragedies happen and something like bad like this happens, definitely everything goes to scatter, you know. I mean, it’s really normal because at the end of the day, you know, I mean, the family is united before, everything was going well before, then all of a sudden everything breaks apart and the whole family becomes, you know, completely disunited. Yes, this is a product of what happened, the tragedy, you know. It’s like a house, you know. It’s, the house is like subject to earthquake, you know, you don’t expect the house to be standing the way it was before.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Guest Speaker
This, what happened to the family was very, very crushing, you know, and it’s the kind of thing that can even destroy a lot of other family. But we thank God at least compared to other people, we have not even been through what, you know, a lot of people have not even been through 10% of what we’ve been through. And you can see them every day in newspapers, you know, always scandal from one scandal to another. In our own relatives to what we’ve been through in- from the military and all the, you know, negative, you know, events, we’re still at least, you know, not as bad as a lot of other people. And we will get out of the woods by the grace of God.